Manitoba Geocaching Association


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Discrimination in Geocaching

 
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1Queenand4Jokers



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Aug 24, 2009 5:23 am    Post subject: Discrimination in Geocaching Reply with quote

Up for discussion:
My hypothesis when studying notes of congratulations/cachers of the month/ listed cacher statistics that both geocaching.com and the Manitoba Geocaching Society place more emphasis and give more credit to cache finders than cache hiders.
The Queen
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glacier_ice



Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 766

PostPosted: Aug 24, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I thought I was loved by Queenie. Crying or Very sad

Cool
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TurdleEggs



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 687
Location: Ste Genevieve

PostPosted: Aug 24, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m glad you brought this up.

The MBGA board has had several discussions in the past about whether we should publish some kind of a “must do caches” list, the idea being it would recognize the hider for putting out an awesome cache, but more importantly, would be a starting point for a new cacher or a visitor to Manitoba. We always ran into the same roadblock though. We were concerned that a hider who didn’t make the list might feel left out and it also brought up the thorny issue of having the MBGA “judge” whether a cache is “good” or not. That’s not the role of the association.

We recently changed the way we tabulate the Top 10 Hiders list. We felt that including archived caches in the Top 10 Hiders count didn’t show the current state of hider activity, so we changed the list to only include active caches in the hide count. The list only includes active members of the Manitoba Geocaching Association.

The Featured Cache to some degree recognizes great hides. MBGA members and board directors suggest caches to include in the rotating Featured Cache on the MBGA web site. Caches are added to, and removed from, the Featured Cache list periodically and it gives some dynamic content to the MBGA site.

The Cacher of The Month isn’t chosen to recognize achievements in hiding or finding caches. There really isn’t any specific criteria for choosing a CotM other than we try and pick a team that the MBGA membership might find interesting to read about. This could include a long time member of the Manitoba caching community, a team that is very active in hiding or finding, or just a really colorful character Smile Sometimes the previous CotM picks the next one, sometimes a member suggests a team, and sometimes the board all shout out names.

The MBGA also publishes monthly 100 cache finding milestones.

The forum is the voice of the membership and the “Congratulations” thread is very popular for recognizing the achievements of piers. Members have also started “Favorite Cache” and “Manitoba Must Finds” threads in the forums. From time to time a cacher visiting Manitoba will post to the forums asking which caches they should find. Members are always encouraged to use the forum for discussions and announcements of interest to Manitoba Geocachers.

The Manitoba caching community is a very creative one, and we’re always looking for new ideas to get people interested in Geocaching in Manitoba and hiding great caches. We’re open to suggestions if the association should be doing more to recognize hiders.

_________________
I came for the caches, but I stayed for the people!
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1Queenand4Jokers



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Aug 31, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Our voice Reply with quote

As a team of 5 members with one vote we'd still prefer to see the lists be ALL hidden caches BY active members of the MBGA just as the finders list is ALL found caches BY active members of the MBGA. Then the two lists are balanced. Currently we feel they are not.

Another question is are the lists also narrowed by FOUND and HIDDEN IN Manitoba geographically for either? We have hidden and found of course outside so do they count for either or neither?

We have been brainstorming ways to motivate hiders and will be implementing them as soon as we can find the time. Wait and See.
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junglehair



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 374
Location: Winnipeg

PostPosted: Aug 31, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some ways I agree with the Queen that it would be nice to see the top 10 list include ALL hides, but then I question if someone like PBD should really be listed in the the top 10 when they have archived most of their caches now and are no longer active. By showing only the active hides, it maintains a current top ten list, rather than a historical one. It also highlights those hiders that are able to maintain a large number of hides.
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candaceandwill



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Aug 31, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple solution... List top 10 lists for both most caches ever hidden and most caches hidden still active.
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1Queenand4Jokers



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sep 01, 2009 1:57 am    Post subject: Like Candace and Will's idea Reply with quote

In the example given then if any cacher or caching team is not an ACTIVE member then his/her/their stats wouldn't appear.

Historically PBD did place many of the caches that added to our first and second year found cache numbers which ironically and many of those hides were adopted by others which often we could refind at the same location thus adding to our found numbers. Sounds circular.

Personally we loved PBD's hides and his hides had the best contents for kids-mine still talk about his caches-he was one of the pioneers and like his hides or not he still contributed to the sport!

We just agree with Candace and Will - simple and to the point both historically and current would be satisfying.
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IAMSTIG



Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 31
Location: Winnipeg

PostPosted: Sep 01, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could also reward people for hitting milestones in hiding in a similar fashion to the find milestones...obviously maybe every 10 instead of 100 but conceptually it might work to encourage hides and recognize those that do place new caches out for others to find. My only concern would be people placing caches indiscriminately just to boost their number of hides...ie quantity vs quality.
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Peter and Gloria



Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 255
Location: N50° 00.___ W96° 57.___

PostPosted: Sep 01, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, like them or not, PBDs hides were a significant contribution to the sport. In 2005, when there were less than 400 caches in Manitoba, PBD had placed over 50 caches!

And yes, the Queen is right, there is discrimination between finders and hiders.

Our 4802 finds would dwindle to 1707 if you only used active caches in Manitoba. That would put us in second place after ertyu or maybe even father back, but it would be almost impossible for the MBGA to maintain a list of finders of active caches in Manitoba.
As candaceandwill suggests, maybe MBGA should at least maintain two lists for hiders; 1. everything, 2. Active Manitoba only.
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1Queenand4Jokers



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sep 06, 2009 5:15 am    Post subject: And to prove Geocaching.com discriminates too Reply with quote

Trying to put some incentives in place for hiders in Manitoba we hid several caches for HIDERS.

Typically Five - Great Hides Series
A cache by 1Queenand4Jokers Hidden: 9/5/2009
Size: (Small) Difficulty: Terrain: (1 is easiest, 5 is hardest)
This is a subscriber-only cache.
Read the audit log (see who viewed your cache)


Cache Issues:

This cache has not been reviewed yet. Once it is published, it will be listed on the site. Check the logs to see if the reviewers have left a note for this listing.

N 49° 49.000 W 097° 08.000 [Other Conversions]
UTM: 14U E 633504 N 5520346
NE 31.3mi from your home coordinates
In Manitoba, Canada

Print:
Simple [No Logs] [5 Logs] [10 Logs] | Driving Directions
| PDF: [No Logs] [5 Logs] [10 Logs]
Download: [Read About Waypoint Downloads]
| | |


Please note: To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.


We have hidden this series of caches to encourage Cache Hiders. The cache is a black tobacco can hidden at posted co-ords. Use stealth. Parking nearby. This is a composite hides cache. In order to log this cache online your caching team must have hidden at least one each of five unique types of hides. The cache must be listed under your caching name and show up as your hide. There are 11 possible types, however some are grandfathered.

Cache TYPES most cachers can HIDE are Traditional, Mystery/Puzzle,Multi,Letterbox, Geocaching Event,Cache In Trash Out Event,Wherigo and Earthcache.

Previous Caches that also count
Virtual
Webcam
Locationless/Reverse

If you have hidden 5 different TYPES of the above caches you may find the cache and log it. If you are a cacher from OUT OF PROVINCE and you are close to having hidden 5 types you may find it and post a note and then log it upon completion of this composite cache.

Sometimes cachers host events together but to keep this logging simple we insist that the cacher who has it attached to their cache name be the one who counts that event.

As a note we ourselves have not completed the combination of five. We are at 4 types so far.

In your log please list the five types you have hidden and provide the cache name/GC # that is your favorite example of each hide.




Additional Hints ( No hints available )

(Decrypted Hints)



Additional Waypoints
No additional waypoints to display. New Waypoint.






Logged Visits ( 4 total. )
4

Cache Logs
September 5 by onecrazycanadian (1 found)
Hi,
I wanted to check with my peers before I answered you. I have taken a look at both of the caches you have in the queue right now. Unfortunately I will not be able to publish either of them as is. The reason is that the requirement to hide a cache in order to log a find is not allowed. Since both of your Great Hides caches require the cacher to hide caches or have hidden caches in order to log a find neither of them are publishable.

If you were to make the hiding of caches optional I could probably find a way to publish them with a little rework. As they are I can't do it.

Thanks
onecrazycanadian
Volunteer Reviewer

[view this log]

September 5 by onecrazycanadian (1 found)
Hi,
There are a couple of things that I need to check on. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Thanks
onecrazycanadian
Volunteer Reviewer

[view this log]

September 5 by 1Queenand4Jokers (2781 found)
Please inform me if I have listed the logging rules clearly enough or if I should improve on them. Thank you. We will be hiding several more with the hiding emphasis.


So NO we can't list any of the three we hid. Didn't find anything in the rule book about it and thought if one could do 1-9 and A-Z Bingo for finders and also impossible scuba caches or Wherigo that you have to have a specific GPS for that perhaps we'd be allowed to do milestone hides like 50 caches hidden etc. but no. Discouraging yes.
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glacier_ice



Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 766

PostPosted: Sep 06, 2009 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, interesting. At least it's got them (the reviewers) thinking.
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candaceandwill



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Sep 06, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic idea 1Q4J,

onecrazycanadian wrote "the requirement to hide a cache in order to log a find is not allowed" - is this written somewhere here? http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx
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Peter and Gloria



Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 255
Location: N50° 00.___ W96° 57.___

PostPosted: Sep 13, 2009 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main problem have hiding as a requirement is that some people will hide garbage and never maintain it.
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polarbeardiggers



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Winnipeg

PostPosted: Sep 13, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: polarbeardiggers Reply with quote

WOW !
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Peter and Gloria



Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 255
Location: N50° 00.___ W96° 57.___

PostPosted: Sep 21, 2009 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My comment had nothing to do with Manitoba geocachers. It had to do with geocaching.com's perception of requiring someone to hide 1, 10 or even 100 caches in order to claim a find on another cache.
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